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	<title>Comments on: Defining &#8220;citizen journalism&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/</link>
	<description>All publication is a political act. All communication is propaganda. All art is pornography. All business is personal. All hail Eris. Vive les poissons rouges sauvages!</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 03:16:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13584</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 03:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13584</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@skeptical:&lt;/strong&gt; I never really watched &lt;em&gt;Nightline&lt;/em&gt;, but &lt;em&gt;Sunday&lt;/em&gt; has been starving to death for years and I'm glad someone's finally put the gun to its head. When Kerry Packer, a man who actually understood media, was at Channel 9's helm he started &lt;em&gt;Sunday&lt;/em&gt; knowing it'd never be profitable. His instructions to the first producer? "Make me proud."

Now that Channel 9 is run by beancounters, they're cutting costs and removing everything which made it a great TV network. It's not something to be proud of. It's embarrassing. The only time I watch Channel 9 now is when it's on the big screen in a pub.

But...

To ask whether "a good blogger", singular, can replace a 2-hour flagship current affairs program is the daftest question I've seen in a very long time. Of course they can't, no more than a solo folk singer can replace Opera Australia. They're different things.

To ask whether "blogs even have a real and serious role to play in truly in-depth political analysis" is to ignore the obvious fact that the answer is &lt;em&gt;already&lt;/em&gt; yes. Ask Dan Rather about the &lt;a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents"&gt;Killian documents&lt;/a&gt;.

To whinge that "a lot of what’s written out there by these wanna-be political commentator blogs are just plain dumb" is to ignore two obvious facts: (1) a lot of what's written &lt;em&gt;anywhere&lt;/em&gt; is dumb, but that doesn't invalidate the entire medium; and (2) there &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; good material out there, but every time someone points it out to you, you skip over that and ask again. Troll.

You're becoming tedious, skeptical. You're doing &lt;em&gt;exactly&lt;/em&gt; what caused me to write my &lt;a href="http://stilgherrian.com/media/note-to-old-media-journalists-adapt-or-stfu/"&gt;original rant&lt;/a&gt;: comparing the idealised best of journalism (which rarely exists) with your own pre-conceived idea of blogging, based on the worst that medium has to offer. Quite frankly, that only shows your ignorance of what's actually happening around you.

&lt;a href="http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/07/23/a-cure-for-curmudgeons/"&gt;Jeff Jarvis is right&lt;/a&gt;. If you're still back there in the past, trying to push those old arguments, then you're part of the problem. It's time to move on. As one of Jarvis' commenters said, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@skeptical:</strong> I never really watched <em>Nightline</em>, but <em>Sunday</em> has been starving to death for years and I&#8217;m glad someone&#8217;s finally put the gun to its head. When Kerry Packer, a man who actually understood media, was at Channel 9&#8217;s helm he started <em>Sunday</em> knowing it&#8217;d never be profitable. His instructions to the first producer? &#8220;Make me proud.&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that Channel 9 is run by beancounters, they&#8217;re cutting costs and removing everything which made it a great TV network. It&#8217;s not something to be proud of. It&#8217;s embarrassing. The only time I watch Channel 9 now is when it&#8217;s on the big screen in a pub.</p>
<p>But&#8230;</p>
<p>To ask whether &#8220;a good blogger&#8221;, singular, can replace a 2-hour flagship current affairs program is the daftest question I&#8217;ve seen in a very long time. Of course they can&#8217;t, no more than a solo folk singer can replace Opera Australia. They&#8217;re different things.</p>
<p>To ask whether &#8220;blogs even have a real and serious role to play in truly in-depth political analysis&#8221; is to ignore the obvious fact that the answer is <em>already</em> yes. Ask Dan Rather about the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killian_documents">Killian documents</a>.</p>
<p>To whinge that &#8220;a lot of what’s written out there by these wanna-be political commentator blogs are just plain dumb&#8221; is to ignore two obvious facts: (1) a lot of what&#8217;s written <em>anywhere</em> is dumb, but that doesn&#8217;t invalidate the entire medium; and (2) there <em>is</em> good material out there, but every time someone points it out to you, you skip over that and ask again. Troll.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re becoming tedious, skeptical. You&#8217;re doing <em>exactly</em> what caused me to write my <a href="http://stilgherrian.com/media/note-to-old-media-journalists-adapt-or-stfu/">original rant</a>: comparing the idealised best of journalism (which rarely exists) with your own pre-conceived idea of blogging, based on the worst that medium has to offer. Quite frankly, that only shows your ignorance of what&#8217;s actually happening around you.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.buzzmachine.com/2008/07/23/a-cure-for-curmudgeons/">Jeff Jarvis is right</a>. If you&#8217;re still back there in the past, trying to push those old arguments, then you&#8217;re part of the problem. It&#8217;s time to move on. As one of Jarvis&#8217; commenters said, &#8220;Lead, follow, or get out of the way.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Evil Pundit</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13582</link>
		<dc:creator>Evil Pundit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:07:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13582</guid>
		<description>The mainstream media were &lt;i&gt;never&lt;/i&gt; good. Skeptical may whinge, but the bad old days are on their way out.

As for terminology, I think the word "journalist" is an insult. Public confidence in journalism as a profession was hovering around the 13% mark the last time I looked. Bloggers are not "journalists". They're something vastly better than that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The mainstream media were <i>never</i> good. Skeptical may whinge, but the bad old days are on their way out.</p>
<p>As for terminology, I think the word &#8220;journalist&#8221; is an insult. Public confidence in journalism as a profession was hovering around the 13% mark the last time I looked. Bloggers are not &#8220;journalists&#8221;. They&#8217;re something vastly better than that.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Stockwell</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13581</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Stockwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 02:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13581</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;@skeptical:&lt;/b&gt; It's been said elsewhere on these pages already, but if you want fully boned-up, robust, referenced and detailed political &lt;i&gt;analysis&lt;/i&gt; from outside traditional media, then you really can't go past Possum Comitatus and Mumble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>@skeptical:</b> It&#8217;s been said elsewhere on these pages already, but if you want fully boned-up, robust, referenced and detailed political <i>analysis</i> from outside traditional media, then you really can&#8217;t go past Possum Comitatus and Mumble.</p>
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		<title>By: skeptical</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13579</link>
		<dc:creator>skeptical</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 00:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13579</guid>
		<description>Well how about that then? Channel 9 is about to axe a couple of news programs, &lt;em&gt;Nightline&lt;/em&gt; and &lt;em&gt;Sunday&lt;/em&gt;. The former isn't worth getting worked up about, but the latter's demise leaves a void! In the context of this blog's recent discussion, I wonder if some good blogger out there might fill the gap. Do blogs even have a real and serious role to play in truly in-depth political analysis? 

If that blogger exists out there today, show him to me! SHOW HIM TO ME!! 

Fact is, a lot of what's written out there by these wanna-be political commentator blogs are just plain dumb. In fact, often they say nothing at all. And when they've got nothing to say, they'll put up a dumb post like "Open Thread". And guess what? That one post gets several hundred comments! WTF is that? 

As far as I'm concerned, that just kinda proves how dumb people have become thanks to the internet.  Here's something worth reading: http://tinyurl.com/468zuz</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well how about that then? Channel 9 is about to axe a couple of news programs, <em>Nightline</em> and <em>Sunday</em>. The former isn&#8217;t worth getting worked up about, but the latter&#8217;s demise leaves a void! In the context of this blog&#8217;s recent discussion, I wonder if some good blogger out there might fill the gap. Do blogs even have a real and serious role to play in truly in-depth political analysis? </p>
<p>If that blogger exists out there today, show him to me! SHOW HIM TO ME!! </p>
<p>Fact is, a lot of what&#8217;s written out there by these wanna-be political commentator blogs are just plain dumb. In fact, often they say nothing at all. And when they&#8217;ve got nothing to say, they&#8217;ll put up a dumb post like &#8220;Open Thread&#8221;. And guess what? That one post gets several hundred comments! WTF is that? </p>
<p>As far as I&#8217;m concerned, that just kinda proves how dumb people have become thanks to the internet.  Here&#8217;s something worth reading: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/468zuz" >http://tinyurl.com/468zuz</a></p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Stockwell</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13556</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Stockwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Jul 2008 06:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13556</guid>
		<description>I like this thread.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like this thread.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13552</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 23:46:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13552</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@Art:&lt;/strong&gt; Well, not everything in a "newspaper" is "news". A lot of other material gets packaged in there. And sometimes you need to provide background information (like the Civil War history) so the news story makes sense.

&lt;strong&gt;@Stephen Stockwell:&lt;/strong&gt; Well how about this? A friend comes up and says, "Hey Stephen, have you heard the &lt;em&gt;news&lt;/em&gt;? Graham is getting married!" That &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; news to you because Graham's a friend and you hadn't heard it before.

I'm now starting to think that this idea of news only being about "important people" happened when news started to be transmitted by big, industrial-scale organisations. The subject of the news had to be of relevance to to sufficient people to justify the deployment of industrial-scale newsmaking.

So, there's a strike by coal miners in South Africa. It's big -- but only because it affects a lot of people in South Africa or those with shares in the mining company. Does it affect me? No. So really, it's not news to me. I'd much rather know about the truck crash blocking the end of my street -- no-one hurt, no great damage either, but that really will screw up my day.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@Art:</strong> Well, not everything in a &#8220;newspaper&#8221; is &#8220;news&#8221;. A lot of other material gets packaged in there. And sometimes you need to provide background information (like the Civil War history) so the news story makes sense.</p>
<p><strong>@Stephen Stockwell:</strong> Well how about this? A friend comes up and says, &#8220;Hey Stephen, have you heard the <em>news</em>? Graham is getting married!&#8221; That <em>is</em> news to you because Graham&#8217;s a friend and you hadn&#8217;t heard it before.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m now starting to think that this idea of news only being about &#8220;important people&#8221; happened when news started to be transmitted by big, industrial-scale organisations. The subject of the news had to be of relevance to to sufficient people to justify the deployment of industrial-scale newsmaking.</p>
<p>So, there&#8217;s a strike by coal miners in South Africa. It&#8217;s big &#8212; but only because it affects a lot of people in South Africa or those with shares in the mining company. Does it affect me? No. So really, it&#8217;s not news to me. I&#8217;d much rather know about the truck crash blocking the end of my street &#8212; no-one hurt, no great damage either, but that really will screw up my day.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Stockwell</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13531</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Stockwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:27:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13531</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;@Art:&lt;/b&gt; So does that mean the definition of "news" follows the size of the subject's public profile?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>@Art:</b> So does that mean the definition of &#8220;news&#8221; follows the size of the subject&#8217;s public profile?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Stockwell</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13529</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Stockwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 03:07:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13529</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;@Stilgherrian:&lt;/b&gt; I &lt;i&gt;love&lt;/i&gt; the idea of "Myriad Publics."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>@Stilgherrian:</b> I <i>love</i> the idea of &#8220;Myriad Publics.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Art</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13524</link>
		<dc:creator>Art</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:42:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13524</guid>
		<description>I was just reading the comment that "Why" was current affairs, but am confused about that because I read lots of articles that explain the "Why" but really are reports about history, such as the United States Civil War history.

And as for the comment about putting in your blog information about your wedding is not "news" it would be if you were a public figure!  Even though you are not a public figures, it is at least "Local news" to your friends and family!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was just reading the comment that &#8220;Why&#8221; was current affairs, but am confused about that because I read lots of articles that explain the &#8220;Why&#8221; but really are reports about history, such as the United States Civil War history.</p>
<p>And as for the comment about putting in your blog information about your wedding is not &#8220;news&#8221; it would be if you were a public figure!  Even though you are not a public figures, it is at least &#8220;Local news&#8221; to your friends and family!</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13521</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 23:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13521</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@jason:&lt;/strong&gt; &lt;en&gt;Webster's&lt;/em&gt; isn't my favourite dictionary, but yes you're right. Indeed, "real journalists" look down upon newspaper columnists as a distinctly lesser breed. Many of them re doing precisely the random brain-dump which bloggers are accused of.

I was once told that answering the who, what, where, when and how questions were news, and answering "Why?" was current affairs. Giving any personal opinion took it outside the realm of both. But then that's a definition of the particular craft of "real journalism", and perhaps the whole printed-word and exclusivity of having a voice in The Press meant that a culture of neutrality was encouraged.

Jay Rosen recently &lt;a href="http://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/statuses/861382715"&gt;asked&lt;/a&gt;, "When people talk about re-inventing journalism they almost never talk about re-drawing its ideology. Why?"

&lt;strong&gt;@Cindy:&lt;/strong&gt; Yes, blogging is, or at least can be, an example of citizen journalism. The whole point is we're trying to drop the word "blogging" because of the negative connotations (for some).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@jason:</strong> <en>Webster&#8217;s isn&#8217;t my favourite dictionary, but yes you&#8217;re right. Indeed, &#8220;real journalists&#8221; look down upon newspaper columnists as a distinctly lesser breed. Many of them re doing precisely the random brain-dump which bloggers are accused of.</p>
<p>I was once told that answering the who, what, where, when and how questions were news, and answering &#8220;Why?&#8221; was current affairs. Giving any personal opinion took it outside the realm of both. But then that&#8217;s a definition of the particular craft of &#8220;real journalism&#8221;, and perhaps the whole printed-word and exclusivity of having a voice in The Press meant that a culture of neutrality was encouraged.</p>
<p>Jay Rosen recently <a href="http://twitter.com/jayrosen_nyu/statuses/861382715">asked</a>, &#8220;When people talk about re-inventing journalism they almost never talk about re-drawing its ideology. Why?&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>@Cindy:</strong> Yes, blogging is, or at least can be, an example of citizen journalism. The whole point is we&#8217;re trying to drop the word &#8220;blogging&#8221; because of the negative connotations (for some).</en></p>
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		<title>By: Cindy</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13510</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13510</guid>
		<description>Sounds like the definition of a blogger to me!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like the definition of a blogger to me!</p>
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		<title>By: jason</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13509</link>
		<dc:creator>jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 12:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13509</guid>
		<description>The problem is that even columnists in newspapers aren't necessarily journalists.  Opinion pieces aren't journalism.

Webster dictionary says journalism is "writing characterized by a direct presentation of facts or description of events without an attempt at interpretation"

Rather than giving a name and status to blogging, lets focus on removing the undeserved "journalism" tag from 90% for the shite that gets pumped out by  media organisations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem is that even columnists in newspapers aren&#8217;t necessarily journalists.  Opinion pieces aren&#8217;t journalism.</p>
<p>Webster dictionary says journalism is &#8220;writing characterized by a direct presentation of facts or description of events without an attempt at interpretation&#8221;</p>
<p>Rather than giving a name and status to blogging, lets focus on removing the undeserved &#8220;journalism&#8221; tag from 90% for the shite that gets pumped out by  media organisations.</p>
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		<title>By: Stilgherrian</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13508</link>
		<dc:creator>Stilgherrian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13508</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;@Lyn:&lt;/strong&gt; No, I don't think the difference is the money at all, though the money thing does conflate the two meanings of "professional", doing it for money or doing it to "professional standards". It's about a different approach -- where the creators and the audience are the same set of people.

"Recreational" implies it's for the fun of it, whereas I think citizen journalism reflects the core human need to communicate and some people take it very seriously indeed.

"Recreational journalism" also sounds like a good puff of what the junior graphic artist keep stashed at the back of his desk drawer...

&lt;strong&gt;Neerav Bhatt:&lt;/strong&gt; You're right, to use one word "blog" to describe &lt;a href="http://huffingtonpost.com"&gt;&lt;em&gt;The Huffington Post&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href="http://www.bhatt.id.au/"&gt;your own work&lt;/a&gt;, mine and a random cat-fancier from Arkansas isn't helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>@Lyn:</strong> No, I don&#8217;t think the difference is the money at all, though the money thing does conflate the two meanings of &#8220;professional&#8221;, doing it for money or doing it to &#8220;professional standards&#8221;. It&#8217;s about a different approach &#8212; where the creators and the audience are the same set of people.</p>
<p>&#8220;Recreational&#8221; implies it&#8217;s for the fun of it, whereas I think citizen journalism reflects the core human need to communicate and some people take it very seriously indeed.</p>
<p>&#8220;Recreational journalism&#8221; also sounds like a good puff of what the junior graphic artist keep stashed at the back of his desk drawer&#8230;</p>
<p><strong>Neerav Bhatt:</strong> You&#8217;re right, to use one word &#8220;blog&#8221; to describe <a href="http://huffingtonpost.com"><em>The Huffington Post</em></a>, <a href="http://www.bhatt.id.au/">your own work</a>, mine and a random cat-fancier from Arkansas isn&#8217;t helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: Neerav Bhatt</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13501</link>
		<dc:creator>Neerav Bhatt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:49:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13501</guid>
		<description>When a non IT/media industry person asks me what I do I say "independent web journalist" and they usually "say wow that's great".

To people in the IT/media industry I say "Professional Blogger" -- and they say wow that's great

If people still don't understand, I say imagine Fairfax Digital but scaled down a heck of a lot and run by 1 person who does all the work: writing, invoicing, selling ad space etc.

I don't think one label works across the whole population</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When a non IT/media industry person asks me what I do I say &#8220;independent web journalist&#8221; and they usually &#8220;say wow that&#8217;s great&#8221;.</p>
<p>To people in the IT/media industry I say &#8220;Professional Blogger&#8221; &#8212; and they say wow that&#8217;s great</p>
<p>If people still don&#8217;t understand, I say imagine Fairfax Digital but scaled down a heck of a lot and run by 1 person who does all the work: writing, invoicing, selling ad space etc.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think one label works across the whole population</p>
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		<title>By: Lyn</title>
		<link>http://stilgherrian.com/media/defining-citizen-journalism/#comment-13500</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Jul 2008 07:13:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://stilgherrian.com/?p=1734#comment-13500</guid>
		<description>Recreational journalism?

Given the wiki definition of journalism and the equivalent good/bad quality, trustworthy/untrustworthy source continua in all kinds of media, the difference is the money, surely?

OK, so it's not actually recreation for a lot of bloggers, but I like the implied flip of the bird at status conscious paid journalists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recreational journalism?</p>
<p>Given the wiki definition of journalism and the equivalent good/bad quality, trustworthy/untrustworthy source continua in all kinds of media, the difference is the money, surely?</p>
<p>OK, so it&#8217;s not actually recreation for a lot of bloggers, but I like the implied flip of the bird at status conscious paid journalists.</p>
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